|
BOOK Chats one Sat per month SATURDAY Chat times Eastern Time : 3pm Central: 2 pm Mtn: 1 pm Pacific Time: 12 noon London, Dublin: 8pm Vienna: 9 pm New Zealand SUNDAY 8 am (Wellington) (see dates at right) |
CURRENT SCHEDULE ALL SATURDAYS NOW Here Be Dragons by Sharon Kay Penman 720 pp JANUARY 16 The Black Prince by Iris Murdoch 448 pp FEBRUARY 13 WHODUNNIT The Red Door by Charles Todd 352 pp Out Dec 29th MARCH 13 Swan Thieves by Elizabeth Kostova 576 pp (pub date 1/12/2010) APRIL 17 The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters 528 pp (paperback pub 5/4/2010) MAY 22 |
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
BCCJillster |
SECRET HISTORY..***SPOILERS 10/08 |
Lead | ||
|
Are you chomping at the bit? Here you go
Currently reading: the bird watching in Africa thingy, LOL, and The Glass Palace by Amitav Ghosh
Just finished: Ritual, by Mo Hayder, The Lace Reader, The Crow Eaters by Bapsi Sidhwa, |
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#1 | |||
|
OK, I'll be back - have a son who had 4 wisdom teeth out earlier today so don't have time to really get going here now!
I was totally involved with this book - so well written. I guess the discussion is going to revolve around character here - it's a really character driven novel and there's lots to think about in terms of why they were the way they were and why they nade the choices they did. Fascinating stuff. Back later....... Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
magusachan |
#2 | |||
|
One question that I really want to ask is ..
Which of all those unique scenes in this book have stayed in your mind at most - or, tend to come back again, and again? |
||||
|
|
||||
magusachan |
#3 | |||
|
For me ..
this scene where Francis comes into Richard's room and tries to seduce him .. or where Richard kisses Camilla because he cannot hold back his feelings for her any longer .. or where they discuss the detailed plan .. it's so weird. Even now, while I am trying to think about one specific scene, it is as if one scene links to the next - and the next one makes me remember how another thing happened. I know that this is a SPOILER thread but I am not 100% sure if everybody has already finished the book, so I'll be careful with details. |
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#4 | |||
|
I got a really vivid picture of Richard's life in California before he went to Hampden - the description of the relentless brightness and yet bleakness of
his hometown really struck a chord. I could see it and feel the hopelessness of it all. And in stark contrast the winter break he spent in the hippie's
place where there was a hole in the roof and no heating.
The scene where Bunny stumbles on them at the ravine just before his death - his realisation of what was going to happen. The early scenes at Francis's house in the country reminded me of Brideshead Revisited - the inclusion of Richard and a life so unlike his own opening up for him. It all seemed almost magical and idyllic for him and all the time the undercurrents and events waiting to overtake him. This is a very disjointed post (sorry) but there's so much to think about. These are just a few instant responses to your question Mags - more coming.... Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
dlee10 |
#5 | |||
|
Pg. 154: "Henry, What in God's name have you done?"
Turning point in the book for me. Up until that point I felt sorry for Richard. His friends are murderers and yet he has very little reaction. Okay, I thought, "He's waiting till he gets away from them to go screaming to the hills." No, he goes on to help them cover up one then do another. No redeeming qualities in this bunch. |
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#6 | |||
|
I know what you're saying, but it wasn't so black and white for me. It was like watching a trainwreck that was inevitable. Did you see anyone of them
as more cuplable than the others?
Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
dlee10 |
#7 | |||
|
I think murder is pretty black and white when there is no self defense or abuse involved. The first murder was done because they wanted to experience a
bacchanal. Fun and games, oops the useless farmer got killed. Oh, dear. They must have felt remorse down the road to have ended up as they did but it
wasn't enough for me. Richard was the worst IMO because he chose those people. I can see the appeal at first but once he found out what they were he sure
as heck didn't need to help them with Bunny. Oh, and all their whining about what a pain it was to keep Bunny happy. Good grief, you killed a man and you
think Bunny is being a nuisance! I could accept the first murder as a tragic accident if it weren't for their attitudes. Not once did any of them wonder
about the farmer's family. Bunny's family was portrayed as being too shallow to really care so that let them off the hook there. What did you see as
being inevitable? How they ended up or something else? I don't think this was a bad book; just a bad story. Does that make sense?
|
||||
|
|
||||
bookworm2 |
#8 | |||
magusachan wrote: The scene that sticks in my mind is on page 502: "I expected everyone to stop and look at me. No one did. I wondered if I should call it to their attention....What are we going to do about this window? said Francis. What are we going to do about me? I said. They all turned and looked at me. He shot me. Somehow, this remark did not elicit the dramatic response I expected." I cannot help but to feel a little sorry for Richard, even though I disagreed with many of his choices. He came from a family that was so absorbed with their own lives and problems that he was an outsider. When he went to school he discovered this mysterious, affluent, family-like group which he wanted to belong. This group became his "family", at least he thought they became his family. In the end he discovered that he really found another family like the one he ran from - absorbed in their own petty problems and lives. He was never really accepted as one of them. I cannot fault him for joining the group. He wanted to belong and wanted a family - he thought this group offered him that. However, he could have made some better choices (albeit difficult choices considering he considered them his family) once he discovered what was going on.
Last Edited By: bookworm2 10/08/08 11:03 PM.
Edited 1 time.
|
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#9 | |||
|
I completely agree that there is no excuse for either of the murders and I'm not condoning in any way what they did - what I meant by seeing it more in
shades of grey was seeing how they ended up making the choices they did. What I meant by saying it was almost inevitable after the first murder was that given
who they were, the upbringing and background they come from, their age and social and emotional immaturity meant that I could see they weren't going to
make the 'right' choice. I thought it was so well written that you could see the thought processes they went through and that it had a kind of
understandable logic from their point of view.
I didn't think of them as spoilt brats either - all of them came from dysfunctional families (not sure about Henry, need to go back and check). They all had privileged backgrounds with the exception of Richard but none of them came from nurturing backgrounds with strong family values and ethics as part of their upbringing. In part I see this as how they wound up being the group they were - they found their own 'family' and did what they had to to preserve it. I felt as if their affluent background gave them a certain worldview that meant they thought there weren't many problems money couldn't fix and their lack of nurturing and parenting meant they were incredibly immature emotionally with no real empathy for others and no real sense of how morally wrong their choices were - a dangerous mix with inevitable results. Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
dlee10 |
#10 | |||
|
I am trying so hard to articulate and doing such a bad job of it. I hope I didn't offend you, Barb! Thank you for explaining; I misunderstood what you
meant about the murders. I want to know why this book connected with others so very differently than it did me. I still think they were spoiled; their lives of
privilage and their expectation that they could have what they wanted spoiled them. I admit I skimmed a lot because I found it to be tedious and may have
missed important bits because of that. The very end,from Henry's suicide on, however, is a different kettle of fish. I actually found myself being sucked
in by the very bleakness and hopelessness of their lives.
|
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#11 | |||
|
Deb, I feel as if I'm only getting such a little of what I felt about this book across - I don't feel as I'm expressing myself very clearly at all.
I think one of the reasons this one got to me or at least why I felt for Richard in some ways is because I have 3 sons ranging in age between 19 and 24 and I kept thinking of them being caught up in something like this. Sometimes kids can find themselves in situations and have no idea how they got there or what to do when they are. I'd like to think that no matter what my sons could come to us or make good choices for themselves and it struck me that these kids had no adults they felt close to or felt they could trust and rely on. Julian was the closest they had and they all felt instinctively they couldn't go to him, that they had to hide a lot of who they were. I thought that was really sad. Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
magusachan |
#12 | |||
|
Wow. I am totally fascinated by your replies. Can literally feel my mind working and twisting ..
About the murder and the question of "guilt". I think despite of their age and their literary educations, they are all students coming from rich backgrounds. They are more or less, kids. Honestly, from the scene on where Bunny abuses Richard and pretends to "invite" him to this expensive restaurant, the reader feels that Bunny is nothing but sheer trouble. As much as I wish I could say the opposite, I could understand them and their decision to escape this hopeless situation. Especially Henry had to carry the burden of keeping Bunny happy and satisfied, and to avoid him from talking. As far as it concerns this guilt, I guess what happens when they all stay with Bunny's parents during the funeral (was it a) weekend, shows that they are not ruthless murderers but simply young guys who did a mistake which they cannot make undone anymore. Also the finale with Henry - how they all have grown apart in the very end ... doesn't this more than clearly state that what had happened truly touched and terrifyed them all? |
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#13 | |||
|
Good to read your response Chris - it's interesting to see other people's take on this one. I agree, there's lots of things I still want to know
and Julian's character and role is one of them. He didn't seem to be part of the action at all but they all absolutely revered him although at the end
Richard could see how they were blinded to what he was really like. Richard finally recognised how cold and amoral he was and how he reflected back to others
what they wanted to see and how others became the best they could be in his company.
I could see how this particular group came to cluster around him - they were all drifters emotionally - none of them seemed to have strong family backgrounds and networks of friends. They all seemed to be very alone in lots of ways and looking for something to belong to. Richard comments early on that had he stayed in California he may well have joined some sort of cult. I wondered if Julian selected his group on the basis of how needy they were and how easily he could manipulate them and mould them into his own little adoring fan club ( he certainly didn't choose Bunny for his academic prowess!). I agree they're not nice kids (and I do think of them as kids) but I think they're all damaged emotionally and a lot of what they do is to protect the only secure group they've ever felt they belonged to. I thought it was interesting too that Bunny is the only one to have struggled with the first murder from a moral point of view but it didn't stop him needling the others and getting what he wanted from Henry. And in the end I came to see Henry as very much like Julian. I think a lot of what happened came from Henry's manipulation of the others, his playing on the fears of the others and his willingness to drop the others in it if it proved expedient. He seemed to be behind rifts between others in the group too - I couldn't make up my mind about the relationaship the twins had - who was abusing and using who - but Henry seemed to exploit that relationship too to get where he wanted. A fascinating book! Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
KScribe |
#14 | |||
|
For me -- the most vivid sections that I recall are:
The winter Richard stayed in the hippie's house (great descriptions -- I actually felt like I was shivering reading that whole horrible section!) The scene in Julian's office with the letterhead from the hotel - I was literally on the edge of my seat! and, the scene at the Corcoron's house (sp?) before Bunny's funeral. Just that whole scene - I could picture it very vividly, and the descriptions of Henry's headaches were SPOT ON (take it from one who suffers those same horribly debilitating headaches). Actually made me sick reading the descriptions of his headaches. |
||||
|
|
||||
KScribe |
#15 | |||
|
Overall, I really enjoyed this book. As many of you have said -- it is difficult for me to put into words WHY that is, but I was somehow drawn into this
quirky, "elite" world of these privileged few and I think Richard was an excellent narrator of the story because he allows the reader to experience
the bizarre world of this inner circle from his perspective.
I DO agree with someone above (can't remember names - I'm sorry!) who said they were spoiled brats. I saw them in that same light. All except for Richard, that is. All of them seemed isolated from their families, except for Charles and Camilla who would spend the summer at their grandmother's house -- but notice that their parents were missing (well, killed in an auto accident, I believe). None of these kids have any parental role models to speak of -- which is why I believe they were so drawn to Julian and felt such a strong urge to please him in whatever way. I don't know who to "blame" for the deaths that occured. It was really due to their over-riding fascination with the Greek culture and ancient rites that drew them to experiment with the Bacchanal -- and I don't know if any of them was more at fault for this than the other. Some of you may say it was Henry's fault - but they all seemed to be eager participants in this experiment -- even Bunny, at one point, if you recall. I did find their REACTION to the first murder rather strange -- but I think the author explained this well via Henry's description of how "out of their heads" they were. They were literally in another state of mind at the time of the murder - and still so afterwards, to a large extent. I could definitely understand the eating away at their souls via Bunny -- it reminded me of a Shakespearean work -- MacBeth and his conscience eating at him after his murders (Lady MacBeth as well) or Hamlet and the ghosts who appear, etc.. Bunny was not a ghost haunting them, but a living being who would remind them and taunt them about the incident every moment he could -- and I never got the sense that any of them just simply forgot about the murder or didn't care about it afterwards. I think it was weighing quite heavily upon all of their minds, actually. I'm not saying that I liked any of these people - in fact, I could not STAND Henry. But I was definitely drawn to them - I wanted to understand more about them and this world they came from and lived in. I think Richard was the same - this group was so different from how he was raised (and also the financial cushion that most of them had, which Richard clearly did not). Again, all of them lacked clear, strong parental figures -- each one had parents who were flawed in some way, or missing from their lives. I know I said this in another spot on the board - -but another novel that this story brought to my mind was The Great Gatsby. Again there was a narrator who was an outsider (Nick Carraway) watching and being drawn into this world of money and a different style of life than he was accustomed to. He hated the lifestyle Gatsby and the people of Long Island stood for, and yet he was drawn to Gatsby as a person and in many ways understood him. For some reason (and I'm not doing a great job here explaining this) I kept thinking of Richard as a parallel to Nick Carraway. An outsider being simultaneously drawn to these people and their lifestyles, and yet repulsed by it at the same time. Like a moth to a flame -- cannot resist, despite how dangerous and deadly the attraction can be. Out of all of the characters - I felt I could relate most to Richard - and I did feel sorry for him in many ways. I know he was at fault for not turning them into the police after Henry told him the story of the Bacchanal -- but I also felt as if he was somehow "trapped" in a way, and couldn't tell the police. I can't explain why I feel this way -- I will have to go back to the book at the scene when Henry first tells him about it and see if it sparks my memory. Kevin |
||||
|
|
||||
riverblue |
#16 | |||
|
I kept having to remind myself that this is trhe story from Richard's point of view - I sympathised with him most but it is being narrated from his
perspective so of course, although we're seeing them warts and all, we are seeing his view of it. That may well explain the gaps - we see what was
important to Richard and what he sees as relevant.
Barb
|
||||
|
|
||||
KScribe |
#17 | |||
|
Absolutely, Barb. I agree with you that since it's told from Richard's perspective there are quite a few gaps in the story line, as we only can
experience what he knows and witnesses of the others.
Here's a question for you all. IF the story could have been told from ANOTHER CHARACTER'S POINT OF VIEW, WHOM WOULD YOU CHOSE AND WHY? I would chose Henry. As to why: I found him despicable. I did not feel remorse for him at the end, nor did I find myself liking him or feeling sorry for him really at any point in the novel (except maybe when he had his headaches, because I could commiserate with him in those scenes). I thougth he was pure evil -- but I would be very interested in hearing the story told in his voice, or from his perspective. What about the rest of you? Also -- did anyone think this might make a good screenplay (adapted of course)? I don't know why, but as I read it I kept having the sensation as if it was a screenplay or something that may perhaps one day be made into a film? |
||||
|
|
||||
magusachan |
#18 | |||
KScribe wrote: I so agree. I almost missed my station when reading this
part on the tram
Q: IF the story could have been told from ANOTHER CHARACTER'S POINT OF VIEW, WHOM WOULD YOU CHOSE AND WHY? This is an excellent question As a woman myself, I would go for
Camilla. She was the goddess surrounded by all the young adult men, and I would have loved to find out what made her choose Henry in the end. Also,
wouldn't it be interesting to find out more that had happened between her and the twin brother? (No, I am not a fan of Ian McEwan )
At many times while reading the book I wondered why Donna Tartt had chosen so many male major characters, but just one woman.
Last Edited By: magusachan 10/17/08 11:40 AM.
Edited 2 times.
|
||||
|
|
||||
magusachan |
#19 | |||
KScribe wrote:( ) - me laughing about the headache joke.
As far as it regards Henry, I had the feeling that while the others basically loved to get drunk and enjoy yum food, chill out, have their occasional naps, etc. etc. he was constantly being under some kind of force or forward movement. He spent so much time considering the options and since nobody else (basically) seemed to mind overly much he automatically got the lead amongst the group. Sure - it would have been interesting to see how it would have ended up if they had not always been following his command. |
||||
|
|
||||
BCCJillster |
#20 | |||
|
Whew, finished in time for the chat--boy was I determined!
Scenes? The shocker for me, the first time I read this was the relationship between Charles and Camilla--even when he came in and kissed her on the mouth I wasn't positive, it seemed so unthinkable. And so many other haunting moments--when Julian's eyes fall on the letterhead Part of what was so horrifying about the book was the simple incremental nature in which it built up. It was horribly plausible given their youth and isolation and vulnerability due to lack of family strength. I do think Henry was the worst of them, though I don't know what they would have done individually, his answers always seemed the most self-protective at the expense of anyone and everyone around him. He kept trying to buy his way out, moment to moment. I didn't really understand the mutilation part of the first murder--wouldn't he have needed an implement to open the farmer's stomach? I thought the earlier explanation more plausible, of course. But Henry's explanation of the power surge it gave him was so cold and horrid. In reading about half of the posts so far, I agree with Barb and Michelle about how they formed a new family and how their dysfunctional pasts predisposed them to not realizing what they were doing moment to moment to keep the new bonds safe. Perhaps it was so well written, or maybe it was my memory of being in a small group within an isolated community and how that sense of unreality can supplant reactions from my normal life (at least three times I've been part of a tiny community like that)--but I could believe what was happening morally, even though I hope to God I wouldn't have gone along with those choices. I thought of it as being so insular--Bunny and Richard were the only ones who seemed to have outside contacts with other students and faculty--that a different sort of reality and logic comes into their daily lives. Not that I'm justifying what they did at all, I just feel that I understand how it happened. Julian--ahhh, now there's a character to ponder. One thought that kept creeping up is, had there been another group before that he'd taught in the same way? If so, no overlap? No old students in contact? He was made such a mysterious and connected figure--at first I thought his mystique was limited to his campus activities and his obviously intricate connection with Henry. (Did they too have a sexual relationship or was it really paternal?) Oops Kanga has to GO....brb
Currently reading: the bird watching in Africa thingy, LOL, and The Glass Palace by Amitav Ghosh
Just finished: Ritual, by Mo Hayder, The Lace Reader, The Crow Eaters by Bapsi Sidhwa, |
||||
|
|
||||